Healing: Out of Group – A Drastic Issue

At some point, even if you aren’t a healing class, you have probably noticed the ridiculous renown gain of an out of group healer. We aren’t talking a couple of more thousand. We are talking 3x if not 4x times much as the next runner-up with the progression pack. In many cases it doesn’t require real healing dedication, as many post-nerf WPs and DOKs are proving. All you really need to do is cycle HOTs all over. And in most cases, even in heavy losing scenarios, a healer doing this can still get what most consider a good scenario renown gain. So win or loss, these out of group healers are racking in good to spectacular gains in renown, no matter what. 

I’ve seen cases where one side was only able to get 2 or 3 cheap kills in the entire scenario. Mostly the spawn campers got a little too close for a punt or pull into the guards. The result, is the out of group healer absorbs all their renown. And since the other side’s RR seem to be that much higher, that healer get’s 3 to 5K for almost no work and little contribution to working with the team. Obviously, if you were being camped from the start how are you receiving that much of a reward while the clever killer gets little to nothing.

So right now, the only things that keeps healers in group; are premade setups; general discomfort with the idea of doing it; willing to take to the hit to renown gain for the team; or they just don’t know better. I personally, under my WP/DOK shell have way too much discomfort in doing that action. Renown gain isn’t as important as knowing I did the best I could. And especially now with the nerf, my function is really all group. There is little room I have in RF/SE expense to use on other groups. It’s not a matter of bursting my group heal and distributing some love to the other parties, my RF/SE pool can’t afford doing more than healing my group. I just can’t swallow losing, or winning knowing that my heals were probably half of what they could have been. Not to mention utility in Morals and blessings for my group.

Last night is what really upset me as I have been swallowing down my pride since patch 1.4’s release. I was the solo healer in my SC, so I thought. I was a lone lowbie WP (my 2nd WP at RR42) with a group of tanks and DPS, with another group of tanks and some DPS in the other. Due in part to the tanks using shield and guarding everything, I was barely able to work my ass off in holding my group together, slightly. The other group had the mind to hold a little back as they were only receiving HoTs and every so often the normal heal and/or Moral 1 in an emergency.

At scenario end, I was proud to see a win score of 500 to 430 in Black Fire Basin, with 420K healing from a post-nerf WP. Which meant it had been one hell of a fight for BFB not to turn into a campfest. I had not been able to beat 200K in healing since the nerf. To my dismay, even with team kills totalling over 50+ on what looked to be fairly high level RRs on the other side, my renown was only at 3K on a RR42 WP with the progression pack. It was the second highest renown gain that Scenario. The first, you ask? A RP with 14K renown and with … drum roll … 120K healing. 420K in group healing  for 3K in renown compared to 120K in out of group healing at 14K … wow.

“THERE WAS A RUNE PRIEST IN HERE!!!!” I screamed in vent. “How is that possible? When I had to perform every rez? Not to mention that every person out of my group was dying for heals.” They literally would have to back off the attack and wait for the HoTs to get them to a moderate level. Most out of group never saw 100% health the entire scenario. I just didn’t have the RF do so. The  healing only seemed to move when I did the heal, and rezzes were only preformed by me, I had no idea a RP was actually also in the Scenario. He wasn’t there at the start, and must have quickly loaded in and then out of group before I notice his square on my Squared mod. The fact that the other group had so many problems shows that the fuck was only HoTing the entire time. For a WP to beat a RP in heals is a ridiculous notion. To be beat by a post-nerf WP is even more absurd.

So if the point of the game is to get renown, then what holds any healer from healing out of group? Premade, conscience, opinions of other players? Where as of 6 months ago I was under the impression that if you wanted to heal out of group, you could with the understanding that us competent healers hate you. With patch 1.4 and the progression packs, my opinion has changed.

As WP/DOKs have taken a nerf, I think, that it is time for an entire heal nerf. It is time for the elimination of out of group heals all together. To only be able heal in group members. The change needs to be made and soon.

As drastic as it is and many will hate that they could be in RVR right infront of a willing Zealot to heal but can’t, or that there is only 1 healer in the Scenario and one group is screwed. It would be a major change and much hate would come about. But quite frankly, exactly why are you okay with the loss the of renown? You realize that renown they are getting is not free renown, it was yours. From your contribution from your kills, they aren’t getting a small piece, it’s you that get the crumbs. Someone dies, they are worth a renown value at death. It’s distributed based on contribution, distribution in your group, and also to a great extent the healers that provided the HP after your kill. You are trading the possibility of receiving some heals for what? Massive loss in renown? Get a dedicated healer.

Tanks, can’t guard out of group, let alone anything further than 30 feet. What support are you as a non-healer not going to receive with a heal out of group? At worse, the demand for finding dedicated healers will go up. The demand for grouping will occur.

We don’t need a change to renown gain and contribution, we need a heal nerf. No more out of group healing, it’s time.

Don't you dare try to steal this very very official signature.


16 thoughts on “Healing: Out of Group – A Drastic Issue

  1. If someone is out of group in a scenario, they get no heals. If they ask they get told why.

    If we are short numbers in a scenario, I quickly bring up the group window, just to check no one is hiding, in the out reaches of the group window.

    In open field RvR, everyone gets heals. If there bar is dropping then they get a little bit of love, since a HOT can save a life (2.5K over 15 secs + Crits), if they have the commonsense to be running away from the fight.

    I will pre hot people at the front, just in case.

    • Oh I understand the that those a good assumptions and ideas.

      My point is, is that heals in this game have always been heavy. No other game has given healers this much power in healing before.

      I’m strictly speaking in the disadvantage of renown gain. And the effects it has to encourage healers out of group. It’s really hard, and tempting to not heal out of group when you know its going to be worth 4X as much.

  2. What is this???? A post about a WP in a DOK blog??????? Malekith is not happy.

    I dunno, RPs don’t really need to be in group to heal. Also prayer of devotion heal prayer is known to inflate heal numbers, plus the RP heal buff proc will have increased the value of your heals, so he could have been healing just as well as you.

    Just remember it is not possible for a RP to heal less than a WP, so he couldn’t have been outhealed by you.

    • It’s not the healing values that is the issue. It’s the fact that as a one man group, the destribution of RP’s is uneven. Since as a group, that RP will get a larger share, than just one person should have. Since that one person is treated as a group.

      I really don’t know the exact mechanic, and Mythic will never be forthcoming, but it is an issue.

      The question is? If this was removed from the game, would you ever heal out of group/warband again.

      At the moment, you can barely get a heal in, with before the person is back up to health. I have never known such generrous behaviour in a game ;)

    • Yep. Along with so many others, many of us exited Gorfang. Didn’t you notice the lack of Efram singing in Realm?

      On the arguement of RP/Zealots not needing to be in a group to heal, is equivalent to a WH/WE not needing to be in a group to kill. Sure you can do it. But it you not at your full potential. Sure, sure, most of your heals are in single focus, but say you are in a case where a group heal might be beneficial, you can’t. Cause you aren’t in a group. Secondly, you aren’t in a group, so no one gets you sweet sweet blessing. Thirdly, there is more to being a caster than heals. You are missing Group Moral, Group Buffs, and you can’t use shield procs out of party. Not to mention if a tank noticed you getting pounced on my a WE, they wouldnt be able to float that Guard.

      There is obviously more to game than just DPS and Heals. Buffs and then Debuffs do quite a bit if not everything in this game. Are you saying that if I were to change Scenarios so that everyone got the same Renown regardless, that a RP or Zealot would opt to heal out of group, because there would be no change? When you heal out of group, you give up the advantage of Group AP buffs, Wound buff, resist buffs, Group Shields (I don’t know that Moral 3 for 4500 isn’t a big deal or nothing, let alone Emac Defense). So can a RP/Zealot heal just as well out of group? Maybe slightly. Could they be better if they stayed in one that gave them buffs, moral boost and AP help, ummmm… definitely yeah.

      Also, in my experience in that scenario, it wasn’t that this RP was just healing out of group, he was clearly just HOTing crazy for max renown. Shown by his lack of rezzes given. Rezzes dont give renown, hence why he didn’t do it. Even if he couldn’t beat me in heals, he should have been close seeing there was only 2 of us in that one.

      • I’m from Badlands. So lots.

        You found Nikh my AM that I’ll be working on more. I’ll need some real heals because my RR72 WP isn’t cutting it.

        I seem to be mostly back on my WL, Laeg. With time on key crafters like Nicholaes, Nicholaos, Haul, and Brecht.

      • I also see that you started a WP. I would say that if you want to Heal, roll differently. Ummm and DPS of the WP is worlds away from the DOK if you had one. The WP might just upset you.

        I personally would think you’d be dangerous in a DPS IB setup.

  3. Personally I dont do it with my RP, but I don’t understand the mentality that they are ‘stealing your renown’. Whatever you may feel about the few who heal out of group (it irks me too, but meh)if they only allowed in-group heals I would, actually, find it to be the last straw and quit healing altogether. For a long time there wasn’t much to excite me as an RP, but being able to heal everyone willy-nilly was my salvation. When T4 WB’s were too elitist to have a low-rr RP in their group I could still play and gain renown. And at the end of the day I pay my money like everyone else and should get to play the end-game, even in crappy gear.

    I used to heal my ass off only to see the WP’s get the love with the massive heal-numbers now the WP’s are jealous? Shoe meet other foot.

    • I just find that healing out of group in scenario’s is just not a good foot to start the fight on.

      I know that the RP can heal just as well in or out of group. But really they should be in group.

      In zerg vs zerg, it’s a free for all and fair enough, but scenarios’s is just a line I can’t cross.

    • To answer your question on the “Mentality that they are stealing your renown”; renown given on a kill is like a pitcher of purple Kool-aid. When it happens, the system (Mom) distributes the pithcer based on the contribution. When in there are 2 groups in a scenario the kill is then distributed to the groups based off each groups contribution to the kill, and then each group member gets an equal portion of that.

      When a healer goes out of party, they form their own group. Each kill is then distributed to the 3, instead of 2, and distributed based on contribution of the kill to each of the 3 parties. However, the amount of healing that the healer has been doing over time as people take damage and he heals it, gives him way more contribution than what really takes place at the time of the kill. Though the kill may have only been really the work of a Maurader pulling in a SW and basically 4 shoting him. That Marauder has been taking small hits for the last minute and the Zealot (Out of Group) has been HoTing, spot healing him the entire minute leading up to it. The SW kill took all of 6K in damage by the Maruader, but the system also sees that Maruader has been recieving almot 15K in heals in the last minute. So when its time for renown distribution, the most of the renown goes to group 3, the out of party healer, as 15K in healing is > 6K in damage.

      This is why, in the very beginning, the first couple of kills basically give the out of party healer almost nothing Renown. Because they haven’t had a chance to heal anything yet. As the SC continues, the renown gain for each kill towards the end is where the healer gets all their renown.

      The problem is, is that most people don’t realize that the renown is being stolen from them. They think its just free renown for the healer. Like it was a bonus. They think that they get a kill, they get renown for it, and then the healer gets some kind of bonus magical renown from out of the thin air for their help. No, if that healer wasn’t out of group, then your kills would be that much larger. The renown is a pitcher of purple Kool-aid, there is only that much Kool-aid. I’m telling you that fat kid that know one likes, is drinking straight from the pitcher while you get a crap cone cup of a sip.

      So when you see that solo healer gaining these renown points, it not that those were some kind of bonus renown just there for the taking for healers only. For instance if they made 15K in renown and each of you made 4K in renown, then you should have actually made somewhere near (15K-4K => 11K / 12people) a little less then 1K more renown for everyone, saying both groups did just as well for each other.

      The false pretense that many DPS and Tanks have that are just happy to have heals, don’t really realize that those tremendous renown gains by the healer out of group are actually at the expense of little peice of there renown.

      Then again, some are just happy to recieve heals. My point is, your heals would actually be that much better if that healer could buff you, Moral Shield you, and possibly recieve AP benefits from classes that give off group AP buffs. Everything has a balance, their renown gain is at your expense, in many ways.

      • I did not know that. This puts a different perspective on things. THOSE EVIL HEALERS!!!! STEAL MY DPS RENOWN WILL YOU WAAAGH!!! What I had read previously on the forums was that there were two renown pools, a dps and a heal pool, so the healer was not stealing your dps renown contribution.

      • Yeah. I’ve seen that sad argument too. Yet mythic dies not chyme on to deny or accept. Though there is renown left in reserve when a kill is made but the player still its 100% health, that seems to be lingering left from contribution.

        A simple way to test that renown doesn’t have 2 renown pool:

        Kill something solo, get renown then heal yourself up. If you aren’t a healer, use pots. Did you get renown for your heal up? Nope. Then how is there a second renown pool?

        Open RvR healing seems to give a tremendous more renown without little sacrifice to the killers renown. The system seems to account for the damage taken in the fight and holds renown in reserve for healers.

    • “…if they only allowed in-group heals I would, actually, find it to be the last straw and quit healing altogether.”

      If unbalanced renown gain is the only purpose you are on a RP, it really only shows why it needs to be addressed. Sorry, that’s just the truth. If thats all that keeps you on that class, then clearly, its not the class for you.

      “And at the end of the day I pay my money like everyone else and should get to play the end-game, even in crappy gear. ”

      Unfortunately, that is a fundamental disagreement I have in this game. I was very sad to see the changes to City ease and the basic deletion of challenging endgame. To me, everyone should have their fun. But man, if I have 40 RR over you, because I spent that much time and dedication on it, but access to endgame should be vastly different then you access to end game. Hence, I think that’s why so many were just able to up and leave at the introduction of 1.4. We no longer had something to show for a toils. Everyone has had it given to them.

      “I used to heal my ass off only to see the WP’s get the love with the massive heal-numbers now the WP’s are jealous? Shoe meet other foot.”

      For the beginning of this game, RP have always been better healers than WP. So it’s not so much now that we are jealous, I think we have always been jealous when it comes down to real heals.

      And this renown problem has always been one. Now with the WP/DOK nerf its apparently a bigger problem, as all healers are doing it.

      My example may have a RP in it. But it goes for all healers. There are WP doing it too, as they have even more encouragement to do it now. My purposed change is against all healers. So no, the shoe isn’t on the other foot, the shoe isn’t on either foot.

  4. Well said. I didn’t understand about the renown distribution, but to be honest I’ve never much worried about it. Overall, however, I feel you’ve misunderstood me. That is likely my fault.

    “If unbalanced renown gain is the only purpose you are on a RP, it really only shows why it needs to be addressed. Sorry, that’s just the truth. If thats all that keeps you on that class, then clearly, its not the class for you.”

    Wheras I said: “Personally I dont do it with my RP”.

    I never have, and I never will play sc’s out of group for any reason. I play for fun, not to ‘grind’ renown (and definitely not at the expense of others). I’m saying that healing out of party in ORVR (or PVE for that matter) is fun. Thats it. When I’m in a warband (or not grouped for whatever reason) I will heal whoever needs it.

    If that option was taken away because people worried it was creating an imbalance, not in actual play, but in their percieved sense of fairness during a particular portion of the game (SC’s) I would be upset. My fun would be impacted and that would be frustrating.

    “To me, everyone should have their fun. But man, if I have 40 RR over you, because I spent that much time and dedication on it, but access to endgame should be vastly different then your access to end game. Hence, I think that’s why so many were just able to up and leave at the introduction of 1.4. We no longer had something to show for a toils.”

    I can’t disagree, really. I’ve never been impressed by the endgame and haven’t spent much time participating in it. I dont like the grind involved and the rewards don’t tempt me. I have, instead, rolled dozens of alts and tried various classes so my game experience will indeed be vastly different than yours.

    I’m not trying to argue with you. If you put time into the game you should be rewarded with whatever you find rewarding…if that makes sense. If you enjoy levelling up, or gaining renown, or getting gear, then so be it.

    I think many of us who have played since release can agree that Mythic hasn’t done the greatest job in implemented a proper balance in many areas of the game. My frustration with the game goes beyond the differences between healing classes. My post wasn’t meant as an attack on any other classes.

    At the end of the day its only a game and those playing should be having fun. I am noting a definite correlation between time played, decreased fun, and increased frustration levels. It may be time for me to move on.

    • Apart of me really thinks it’s play balance. Everything else requires a group to preform when it comes to buffs and gaurds. No healer is without buffs, so healing out of group is a disadvantage in all forms. The renown gain is just a whole reason for it to go noticed.

      To Mythics credit, I don’t feel the game was made with too much imbalance. PvP is hard to balance when you still have PVE. I don’t think they’ve done terrible. But I do think some more potent changes now and in the past have been stupid ways to lose subs.

      Decreased fun is not good for any player. I think many players are looking for ways out, so you aren’t alone. In my guild it seems that many just want out. I expect Rift to take away some population, but probably only for a vacation from WAR. ultimately there is still few challengers against the PvP of the game.

      And oh, I also have a ton of alts too. It wasn’t until the last couple of months that I really made the push for endgame. I only acheived a RR80 with the introduction of 1.4. And then as soon as I hit 81 and saw those new numbers, ehhhhhh…. we re-rolled, and there was no part of me sad to leave it behind. I’m back on old projects on Badlands again. And being sub RR60 is fun. Because when you get facerolled, you can always go … hey, I’m lowbie, lol.

      Also, you never have to worry about anything being seen as an attack. I just like to argue. The people I get along with best in the Blogosphere don’t generally share my opinions. Which encourages me to say random stuff just to get a reaction.

      I think the overall problem that I have with the current situation is the not just the renown gain. If Mythic came out, gave the math and proved how it wasn’t stealing renown, I still have problem. Besides that it is seemingly not true, but the issue here is that it encourages a break away from being in group. And that’s always a problem. Because the short sighted see raw DPS and Healing, and everyone seems to forget why T4 is so vastly different from T3, its all the effects, buffs and Morals. To ignore that tanks can buff healers in many ways, for DPS not realize that an ingroup healer has a much better chance of indirectly healing them, let alone buffs, is just wild. Its been 2 years, by now, I would expect everyone to realize that the amount of damage or healing you do is irrelevant compared to the actual cause.

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